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	<title>Comments on: Montrose</title>
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	<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/</link>
	<description>Slices of my life in the Southern California Desert</description>
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		<title>By: Mommynator</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10579</link>
		<dc:creator>Mommynator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10579</guid>
		<description>Dear Rebecca:

That you chose a life that breaks your father&#039;s heart says a lot. Please note that I left the door open for your Dad to re-evaluate your relationship and upbringing.

In your heart of hearts, you cannot ignore what Scripture - the basis of everything we learn, say, do and believe - rejects your &quot;lifestyle&quot;. This is not to say that I wouldn&#039;t want you as neighbors, or that you are evil people who will steal my passowrds and wreck my life.

There is much more to be said about my niece, but in the end she chose her life and is living with the dire consequences of those choices. Things may be &quot;cool&quot; right now with your choices, but things have a way of catching up with ALL OF US when we make choices in direct contradiction to how God made us to be, and what we actually do.

God made us male and female to reflect His WHOLE character, as we are made in His image. You cannot decide that He doesn&#039;t know what he&#039;s doing when He says that you are hurting YOURSELF and your partner by doing otherwise. There may be reasons, but that&#039;s still no excuse. People get the urge to do all sorts of things, but that doesn&#039;t mean one should act on them.

And of course, there is much more to be said on both sides, but there&#039;s the summary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Rebecca:</p>
<p>That you chose a life that breaks your father&#8217;s heart says a lot. Please note that I left the door open for your Dad to re-evaluate your relationship and upbringing.</p>
<p>In your heart of hearts, you cannot ignore what Scripture &#8211; the basis of everything we learn, say, do and believe &#8211; rejects your &#8220;lifestyle&#8221;. This is not to say that I wouldn&#8217;t want you as neighbors, or that you are evil people who will steal my passowrds and wreck my life.</p>
<p>There is much more to be said about my niece, but in the end she chose her life and is living with the dire consequences of those choices. Things may be &#8220;cool&#8221; right now with your choices, but things have a way of catching up with ALL OF US when we make choices in direct contradiction to how God made us to be, and what we actually do.</p>
<p>God made us male and female to reflect His WHOLE character, as we are made in His image. You cannot decide that He doesn&#8217;t know what he&#8217;s doing when He says that you are hurting YOURSELF and your partner by doing otherwise. There may be reasons, but that&#8217;s still no excuse. People get the urge to do all sorts of things, but that doesn&#8217;t mean one should act on them.</p>
<p>And of course, there is much more to be said on both sides, but there&#8217;s the summary.</p>
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		<title>By: John 2</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10578</link>
		<dc:creator>John 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10578</guid>
		<description>Brother John, I am you tribe, I feel your pain, and we are not left alone; He is with us. Together, we move forward and by His grace will be give Him glory by our efforts to help the fellowship grow in the likeness (and humbleness) of Christ. I remain quite no longer and pray to speak with His words...
John 2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother John, I am you tribe, I feel your pain, and we are not left alone; He is with us. Together, we move forward and by His grace will be give Him glory by our efforts to help the fellowship grow in the likeness (and humbleness) of Christ. I remain quite no longer and pray to speak with His words&#8230;<br />
John 2</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca, daughter of John</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10577</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca, daughter of John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10577</guid>
		<description>I was directed here by my father, John,  who&#039;s comment is above.  The purpose of this post is not to start any drama or explain myself and my choices.  I understand all too well the perspective of most CoC  individuals on this matter.  

However, my partner and I would like to thoughtfully respond to Mommynator&#039;s comment regarding her comparison to her husband&#039;s brother&#039;s daughter.  I will not comment on Mommynator&#039;s evaluation of her, as I don&#039;t know her personally.  Besides, whatever struggles she has in her life, &quot;we are all sinners&quot; etc..

However, I will say that both my life and my partner&#039;s life and experience much more closely resemble her four &quot;normal&quot; siblings than the example given in comparison with us.  We have normal, everyday, productive lives  that resemble not at all the stereotypes you see on tv.  We were each other&#039;s first and only.   

This comment is simply to provide food for thought, and because I have spent too much of my life being silent. Posted with all the respect and love in the world for my father, who I care for very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was directed here by my father, John,  who&#8217;s comment is above.  The purpose of this post is not to start any drama or explain myself and my choices.  I understand all too well the perspective of most CoC  individuals on this matter.  </p>
<p>However, my partner and I would like to thoughtfully respond to Mommynator&#8217;s comment regarding her comparison to her husband&#8217;s brother&#8217;s daughter.  I will not comment on Mommynator&#8217;s evaluation of her, as I don&#8217;t know her personally.  Besides, whatever struggles she has in her life, &#8220;we are all sinners&#8221; etc..</p>
<p>However, I will say that both my life and my partner&#8217;s life and experience much more closely resemble her four &#8220;normal&#8221; siblings than the example given in comparison with us.  We have normal, everyday, productive lives  that resemble not at all the stereotypes you see on tv.  We were each other&#8217;s first and only.   </p>
<p>This comment is simply to provide food for thought, and because I have spent too much of my life being silent. Posted with all the respect and love in the world for my father, who I care for very much.</p>
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		<title>By: Mommynator</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10576</link>
		<dc:creator>Mommynator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10576</guid>
		<description>John - my husband&#039;s brother has a daughter who has probably been there, done that and with many people and both sexes. She&#039;s had two children as a result. She is so messed up. However her four siblings are &quot;normal&quot;, leading decent lives with good spouses, etc. You never know how things will turn out.

She was raised by very conservative, Calvinist-to-the-extreme (at least to me) parents who really loved her and tried to give her boundaries, etc. We always thought they went overboard on some things, but they did love their kids.

If you believe you contributed to her going for that lifestyle, then making peace with her is good. The rest is her choice for whatever reasons. Keep praying for her, show her love even if she knows that you don&#039;t agree with her. God has His ways even when we see no hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8211; my husband&#8217;s brother has a daughter who has probably been there, done that and with many people and both sexes. She&#8217;s had two children as a result. She is so messed up. However her four siblings are &#8220;normal&#8221;, leading decent lives with good spouses, etc. You never know how things will turn out.</p>
<p>She was raised by very conservative, Calvinist-to-the-extreme (at least to me) parents who really loved her and tried to give her boundaries, etc. We always thought they went overboard on some things, but they did love their kids.</p>
<p>If you believe you contributed to her going for that lifestyle, then making peace with her is good. The rest is her choice for whatever reasons. Keep praying for her, show her love even if she knows that you don&#8217;t agree with her. God has His ways even when we see no hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10575</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10575</guid>
		<description>Dear brother John, a thousand thoughts are racing through my mind. Please know that I am praying with you and for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear brother John, a thousand thoughts are racing through my mind. Please know that I am praying with you and for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Dee Andrews</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10574</link>
		<dc:creator>Dee Andrews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10574</guid>
		<description>Oh, my goodness . . . John - I shall pray with you and for you in all of these things you have shared with all of us today.  I SO hope (and believe he will) Greg emails you to respond to your anguished requests for understanding and camaraderie.

Greg &amp; I both (and many of us) follow Patrick &quot;religiously&quot; and consider him to be our friend, as well as each other.  You might want to, if you have not already, write to Patrick, as well.  

I pray right now that God&#039;s grace, mercy and love lift you up in your trials and tribulations.  Living where I do, I understand your struggles to the utmost.  I have never experienced what you are at the moment with your daughter, but have family &quot;destruction&quot; occurring at the moment.  We will all be here for you, John.

Dee Andrews</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, my goodness . . . John &#8211; I shall pray with you and for you in all of these things you have shared with all of us today.  I SO hope (and believe he will) Greg emails you to respond to your anguished requests for understanding and camaraderie.</p>
<p>Greg &amp; I both (and many of us) follow Patrick &#8220;religiously&#8221; and consider him to be our friend, as well as each other.  You might want to, if you have not already, write to Patrick, as well.  </p>
<p>I pray right now that God&#8217;s grace, mercy and love lift you up in your trials and tribulations.  Living where I do, I understand your struggles to the utmost.  I have never experienced what you are at the moment with your daughter, but have family &#8220;destruction&#8221; occurring at the moment.  We will all be here for you, John.</p>
<p>Dee Andrews</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10573</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10573</guid>
		<description>My heart aches…
I don’t normally post (however, I am a terrific lurker) and then seldom with my own name but I need to share my feelings, so I hope you will bear with the personal comment. I do believe that my ‘tribe’, as Patrick Mead says to describe our flavor of the Church, has so much to offer and is so worthy of loyalty and effort to draw closer to being the Bride of Christ.  But I have been through so much of what Greg and all his readers seem to have been through in finding our tribe more concerned with what sets us apart rather than what binds us together.  And today my heart is aching again…

There are two things that compel me to write. First, I have a daughter who has become involved in a relationship with another woman. She says that she attends a church. I think mostly because it is a church that welcomes and accepts the homosexual lifestyle as a part of God’s love.  When I wrote a former minister at a university church for some help with understanding how to reach out to my daughter, I never received a response. It was as if the topic was too controversial to touch (I am receptive to Bible study that would show me if I am wrong about homosexuality being a sin but I have not found it yet).  Why does the purported Church of Christ not seem to be able to stand up and identify sin and find ways to reach the sinner? It is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT that my daughter be in a relationship with Christ that compels her (as it must all of us) to walk in the light and give up our sins than it is for us to avoid the tough discussions about how to reach someone who would rather give up her relationship with her parents (no, we are not withdrawing from her) because of the love she has for her ‘mate’.  Rather, our tribe seems to either avoid the discussion or just condemn the sinner (unless they ‘come forward’) and we move on…

Second, I was ‘corrected’ by an Elder yesterday morning.  My wife and I knew that we were attending a conservative ‘tribe’ when we moved to our local community three years ago but we accepting of that and have made good friends with only the occasional frustration about “church of Christ ‘ism”.  Yesterday I was the song leader.  We typically use a video project during the sermon and yesterday I put the Doxology on the projector so we could sing the second and third verses that were not in our songbook.  I then followed with scripture quotations during the next two songs just to reinforce the theme of the song.  After service I was strongly admonished that “we do not do that here.”  Now the good news is that there was a reason. It seems that another congregation had split some years ago and the remnant that came to worship with them felt strongly that the use of the projector during song service was the first step in what led to the split.  I will not be a divisive member and will be in subjection to those members. The bad news of course is that using a projector during the song service is such a red herring.  It is not just my heart that aches, it is my spirit. I need God, I need to worship God because he is worthy… because I am not and need his grace.  As I said earlier, why, oh why, do we focus on what sets us apart rather than what binds us together?

I love my tribe. But I want to love God more.  I am encouraged by the journey Greg has shared and the stories of his readers. I also rejoice that Greg and his daughter are in places to grow closer to God.

I’m still working on it.  Blessings to you all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My heart aches…<br />
I don’t normally post (however, I am a terrific lurker) and then seldom with my own name but I need to share my feelings, so I hope you will bear with the personal comment. I do believe that my ‘tribe’, as Patrick Mead says to describe our flavor of the Church, has so much to offer and is so worthy of loyalty and effort to draw closer to being the Bride of Christ.  But I have been through so much of what Greg and all his readers seem to have been through in finding our tribe more concerned with what sets us apart rather than what binds us together.  And today my heart is aching again…</p>
<p>There are two things that compel me to write. First, I have a daughter who has become involved in a relationship with another woman. She says that she attends a church. I think mostly because it is a church that welcomes and accepts the homosexual lifestyle as a part of God’s love.  When I wrote a former minister at a university church for some help with understanding how to reach out to my daughter, I never received a response. It was as if the topic was too controversial to touch (I am receptive to Bible study that would show me if I am wrong about homosexuality being a sin but I have not found it yet).  Why does the purported Church of Christ not seem to be able to stand up and identify sin and find ways to reach the sinner? It is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT that my daughter be in a relationship with Christ that compels her (as it must all of us) to walk in the light and give up our sins than it is for us to avoid the tough discussions about how to reach someone who would rather give up her relationship with her parents (no, we are not withdrawing from her) because of the love she has for her ‘mate’.  Rather, our tribe seems to either avoid the discussion or just condemn the sinner (unless they ‘come forward’) and we move on…</p>
<p>Second, I was ‘corrected’ by an Elder yesterday morning.  My wife and I knew that we were attending a conservative ‘tribe’ when we moved to our local community three years ago but we accepting of that and have made good friends with only the occasional frustration about “church of Christ ‘ism”.  Yesterday I was the song leader.  We typically use a video project during the sermon and yesterday I put the Doxology on the projector so we could sing the second and third verses that were not in our songbook.  I then followed with scripture quotations during the next two songs just to reinforce the theme of the song.  After service I was strongly admonished that “we do not do that here.”  Now the good news is that there was a reason. It seems that another congregation had split some years ago and the remnant that came to worship with them felt strongly that the use of the projector during song service was the first step in what led to the split.  I will not be a divisive member and will be in subjection to those members. The bad news of course is that using a projector during the song service is such a red herring.  It is not just my heart that aches, it is my spirit. I need God, I need to worship God because he is worthy… because I am not and need his grace.  As I said earlier, why, oh why, do we focus on what sets us apart rather than what binds us together?</p>
<p>I love my tribe. But I want to love God more.  I am encouraged by the journey Greg has shared and the stories of his readers. I also rejoice that Greg and his daughter are in places to grow closer to God.</p>
<p>I’m still working on it.  Blessings to you all.</p>
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		<title>By: Dee Andrews</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10572</link>
		<dc:creator>Dee Andrews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10572</guid>
		<description>Ditto what everyone else said.  Including what you said about the different take on Jesus&#039; parable, Greg.  I&#039;d like to hear it, as well.

Dee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto what everyone else said.  Including what you said about the different take on Jesus&#8217; parable, Greg.  I&#8217;d like to hear it, as well.</p>
<p>Dee</p>
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		<title>By: Donna</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10571</link>
		<dc:creator>Donna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10571</guid>
		<description>What a joy to see our children unblinded and unbound from the chains that kept us captive for so long.....so cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a joy to see our children unblinded and unbound from the chains that kept us captive for so long&#8230;..so cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Gayle Daniel</title>
		<link>http://gregengland.com/2010/01/31/montrose/comment-page-1/#comment-10570</link>
		<dc:creator>Gayle Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gregengland.theobloggers.com/?p=2475#comment-10570</guid>
		<description>Praise the Lord!  I am so happy that Jessica is growing in her service to the Lord in a place where she can feel the love of God and Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Praise the Lord!  I am so happy that Jessica is growing in her service to the Lord in a place where she can feel the love of God and Jesus.</p>
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